50. What Attachment Style Has To Do With Leading Your Business | Deborah McDaniel

In today’s episode, I sit down with Deborah McDaniel, an attachment-based leadership and business coach, and CEO of *Becoming Luminary*. 

We dive deep into how understanding attachment styles can help you become a more effective business leader, especially as you scale your business. Deborah shares her personal business journey and breaks down how your attachment style affects how you manage your team, clients, and decision-making. 

From anxious to dismissive avoidant attachment styles, Deborah offers incredible insights on how these patterns show up in business and the steps you can take to shift into a more secure style for sustainable growth.

Key Points Covered:
✨ Attachment Styles 101: How different attachment styles shape your leadership and business decisions.
✨ Real-Life Application: Deb’s personal pivot from ghostwriting to coaching, and how attachment theory guided her through the process.
✨ Business Challenges: How attachment patterns impact your relationships with clients, team members, and even your business decisions.
✨ Steps to Secure Attachment: Practical tips on how to recognize your attachment style and shift towards a more secure, aligned approach.

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Andrea Elibero: Andrea here, your host and passionate business coach and scaling strategist for Soulful Service Providers and Coaches. Welcome to another episode of Soulpreneur Scaling Stories. Have you ever wanted to look behind the curtain of your fellow entrepreneur's business to see what actually went into scaling it?

[00:00:17] Well, you are in for a treat because that's exactly what we are doing here. In each episode, we will be uncovering the truth behind the lessons and the stories behind what it truly takes for sole preneurs to scale their businesses intentionally. I'm hoping that their stories will help you to unlock the true potential of your business so you can create your own soulful, abundant and aligned laptop lifestyle through intentional scaling.

[00:00:41] So whether you're just starting out on your scaling journey or you're a seasoned entrepreneur seeking inspiration, this episode has something incredible in store for you. Are you ready to rise, grow and create? Create a business that fully supports your dream life. Well, let's dive in before we begin.

[00:00:57] Make sure to hit that subscribe buttons. You never miss an [00:01:00] empowering episode filled with real stories and soulful insights.

[00:01:06] Hello, my friends. I'm so excited today to have Deb McDaniel here, who is an attachment based leadership and business coach and CEO of Becoming Luminary. Hello, Deb. How are you?

[00:01:20] Deborah McDaniel: I'm good. Thank you for having

[00:01:21] Andrea Elibero: Amazing. Thank you so much for being here. So I'm really excited because when I was reading your info, you have gone on quite the business journey.

[00:01:31] So let's start off with, yeah, what are you doing? Right now, what does your business look like today? Mm.

[00:01:41] Deborah McDaniel: right now I am. I'm actually in the middle of a pivot. I would say, um, I'm kind of landing the plane with the direction that I'm going in right now. So right now I support seven and eight figure business owners. women business owners [00:02:00] with navigating their attachment styles in relation to how they they lead their business.

[00:02:05] So once you get to like the seven figures, eight figures, and I've worked behind the scenes with a number of seven and eight figures as a fractional director of operations, I always see there's like this This like invisible ceiling that comes up, and it's not a strategy based thing, um, when they're so used to the strategies breaking through these glass ceilings, and so really it's about our internal view of the world, how we, you know, the patterns that can propel you forward to six figures and seven figures and even eight figures at a certain point become like a hindrance.

[00:02:44] To your growth, they got you there, but then suddenly you're realizing like. This isn't the healthiest, it isn't the most sustainable. I'm having trouble navigating relationships in my business with my clients, with my team. Um, some of my clients [00:03:00] have like co CEOs, so I'm having issues with communicating and feeling understood and feeling heard with, you know, the people that are in the scope of my business.

[00:03:10] And so, um, I help them basically to get much clearer on, you know, what are the patterns? What are the underlying patterns that you might have? What are the, the rooted beliefs that you developed as a child to your caregiver that you use to propel your business to this level and are now kind of causing some issues because you're running into these.

[00:03:34] These like blind spots, attachment blind spots. Um, so I do coaching with that and then on the personal side of like the fun side of my business, I am getting really deep into like energetic work and shadows and all the fun juicy stuff that I love to do.

[00:03:54] Andrea Elibero: Mm. I love this. And can you give a little crash course on attachment style for those [00:04:00] who are not as familiar?

[00:04:02] Deborah McDaniel: Yeah, okay. So crash course on attachment. So when you are, there's this theory that became, you know, pretty popularized in the 70s that states that as a child you will attach to your caregiver in a number of ways. And so they, they did a bunch of studies starting in like the 1940s when World War II was happening, where they tracked kids who, parents were in the household and then suddenly care, your caregivers were having to go to war and mothers were having to go to work.

[00:04:38] And so they started doing these like, um, just following children. And in the seventies they determined that When you're a child, in order to, like, thrive, then you have to have these three criteria that are met. So the first criteria is that you had an [00:05:00] environment, like, your, your physical environment was pretty safe.

[00:05:04] There wasn't a lot of, like, Harm, um, or you could hurt yourself. So that's the first thing, is like, you felt safe in your environment, you had safety. The second was that you had a caregiver, like a primary caregiver. So it could be mother, father, um, guardian, whoever was predominantly around you. They were available.

[00:05:27] to help regulate you. So as a child, our right brains that I've done, I'm in a master's of neuroscience and business psychology right now. And I find it very fascinating, but essentially our right brain is like the thing that lights up when we're born and it's all experiential. You're perceiving things, you're seeing things.

[00:05:47] And then as you start to grow your left hemisphere, your left brain turns on and starts to like, interpret those things. And so right brain is all irrational, emotion, primitive, survival [00:06:00] based. And so as a child, when you're navigating like, What, what am I feeling in my body? I'm feeling uncomfortable and you can't language it because your right brain is not language based.

[00:06:11] It's emotions. It's visuals. Then you have an adult who can teach you how to perceive yourself and communicate and regulate your emotions so that you know and you've bonded with them enough that when you're feeling something they are self aware enough to meet you where you're at and guide you through.

[00:06:31] Regulation. So that's the second criteria.

[00:06:34] Andrea Elibero: So, I

[00:06:34] Deborah McDaniel: then the third.

[00:06:35] Andrea Elibero: so before we get to the third, I, so I have, so similarly I have a background in both in biology and clinical psychology, like a higher degree, and I didn't, I've never studied children so much, this was not my thing, so when you're like, when you're describing this and the right brain and the left brain and how this applies to children, I'm like, oh, like a whole light bulb went off for me, because I'm like, oh, Right?

[00:06:56] Like, it's so cool. Like, this explanation of, right, like, your right [00:07:00] brain develops first, and, and, oh, that makes perfect sense. And so, anyhow, so I just was like, oh, like, like, to me, it's like a little science nerd and psychology nerd. I love this. This is so fascinating.

[00:07:08] Deborah McDaniel: Oh, I'm so glad you're a science nerd because I am too and like energy and for learning all of these things. So then the third criteria that has to be met is that not only is your caregiver self aware enough to be able to regulate you to see you in need of regulation and available to do that, but they are primarily regulated themselves.

[00:07:31] So you're witnessing them be in regulation. And that's how our left brain starts to interpret the world. So your left brain starts to develop right around like that six, seven years old, and it's taking in all of the experiences that you have. So if,

[00:07:47] Andrea Elibero: I'm chuckling because I'm like,

[00:07:50] what percentage of people are able to, right, are, and I don't want to give away the the plot in terms of Tashma style, but are like, you know, [00:08:00] like, yeah, the percentages I imagine have to be pretty low, the ones who are both able to regulate their children and are self regulated enough themselves.

[00:08:07] Okay,

[00:08:09] Deborah McDaniel: this is, I kind of question the, the, the math. The math doesn't map to

[00:08:14] Andrea Elibero: okay.

[00:08:15] Deborah McDaniel: my experience. But I will say that if all three of those things are met, and you as a child will go through the world and become an adult who is pretty fearless, you don't have, like, you will take risks, and you know how to Both check in with your emotions and like use the logic of your brain.

[00:08:37] Like you have a very nice duality of using your left hemisphere and your right hemisphere to make decisions. So there's a, there's a level of confidence there. There's a level of taking risk. There is like generally like an open heart to the world, right? You have a trust because you were, you were raised in an environment where trust was inherently present for you.

[00:08:58] So when you run into [00:09:00] issues. It's not like a big deal, like you just, you figure out, it doesn't take much, like a tweak here, a tweak there, to get that going and do the things. Um, and studies show that around, this is where I'm like, the math, hmm. Studies show that about 67 percent of people in this world have a secure attachment, and that's what that means

[00:09:23] Andrea Elibero: I'm sorry teacher

[00:09:26] Deborah McDaniel: secure attachment.

[00:09:26] Yeah,

[00:09:29] Andrea Elibero: what the study is 67 percent

[00:09:31] Deborah McDaniel: 67%.

[00:09:32] Andrea Elibero: attachment style. I don't know but I know I'm on the same page as you like what like no

[00:09:37] Deborah McDaniel: I'm like, I don't know, man. I don't know. That's from the studies that they've done and they've looked at that's across the board. They say about 67 to 70 percent have secure attachments. Which is wild to me.

[00:09:51] Andrea Elibero: Yeah,

[00:09:53] Deborah McDaniel: So that's, that's the, that's the like, that's the goal. We want to be open to the world.

[00:09:58] We want to have, [00:10:00] um, the ability to distinguish, you know, when do we tap into our emotional state? When do we tap into data and logic and reasoning and analyzing and, you know, It allows you to move through the world. So they looked at this through like primarily intimate relationships. And when I was learning this, I thought, why is nobody talking about this in business?

[00:10:22] Because these are the same, how you attach to your caregiver and how you attach to your spouse or your partner. It's the same way you're attaching to clients. It's the same way you're attaching to, you know, your team. There's so many facets. We could look at money, we could look at all sorts of stuff. Um, so back to that point, if you didn't have those three things, at least one of them, if not any of them, then you generally fall into three, what's called insecure attachment styles.

[00:10:52] And so one is anxious, preoccupied. And what that means is that, um, basically, like, you, you didn't [00:11:00] have access to those three things, that safe environment, a caregiver who was available to regulate you, and they were regulated themselves. So, with an anxious preoccupied, they generally found that that usually happens when the caregiver is not readily available to regulate you.

[00:11:18] So that second criteria. And what you learn as a child then is that my caregiver is not always around. And so I need to do whatever I can to keep them as long as possible. And so it's, it's like, if you look at nervous system responses, right? So you have a secure attached person generally has a very regulated, resilient, flexible nervous system response.

[00:11:46] An anxious preoccupied person has a, they're, they're always on like a fight response. And the fight response is like there is a threat of my caregiver being taken away because either they weren't physically [00:12:00] there or they just weren't emotionally there. to soothe you. And so as a child, what that looks like is ramping up, you know, temper tantrums, screaming, really heightening, like your body response.

[00:12:12] And what they found in these studies is that if you were a child with an anxious preoccupied attachment, you ramp up, you have this big explosion. And sometimes your parent would come back and they would actually ramp up even more. Because if they, they, the thought process at that very immature left brain that's still trying to analyze what do I do is like, well, if I calm down, they'll leave again, they won't be available to focus on me.

[00:12:41] So I got to stay, like,

[00:12:44] Andrea Elibero: Mm

[00:12:45] Deborah McDaniel: and, What this looks like as adults in business is having to like micromanage the relationships that you're with. People pleasing, you know, really like going above and beyond overworking, over [00:13:00] committing, over communicating to make sure that the, the relationships that you form are not at risk of being, you know, left behind or you being abandoned.

[00:13:11] So that's, that's one. If you learn that your caregiver was not available for you, and um, it's, it's kind of like similar, then you could have gone the opposite direction, where anxious ramps up and they fight, you have dismissive avoidant, which is the second insecure style, and that is about like, okay, that means that I can't, Take, like, nobody's going to be available for me, so it's not worth it for me to try and, and have somebody help me.

[00:13:45] So I just need to shove my emotions, my emotional needs, under a rug, and get away from, like, feeling. And so that's what a dismissive avoidant does, is really, like, feelings, I don't want them. Like, [00:14:00] I want to look at the strategies. I want to work, I want to look at how can I keep myself busy so that if I'm feeling negative feelings.

[00:14:09] Like it's like a trigger in your brain. That's like nope. There's nobody that's gonna be able to meet me here So I don't need it. I can push through I know your community is like spiritual and soulful. So it really looks like like you'll be doing journaling and you'll feel like I'm, I'm frustrated. I'm feeling like this feeling of frustration in my business because maybe something has changed and I don't know how to fix it and a dismissive avoidant person will generally, like, they'll feel that and they'll maybe write in their journal, like, I'm a little upset.

[00:14:48] But I need to stay like I'm so grateful for the universe and for God and all the things and like they will completely bypass that, that negative feeling and really try and focus on the [00:15:00] positive, even though there's there's dissonance, right? You're still feeling it. Um, and so they, they're, they're very much like a flight, like, get away from, get away from the things.

[00:15:10] And it's, um, it's not. It's not like they don't do anything because they do a lot. They do a lot of busy work. They do a lot of keeping themselves in motion, just like an anxious, but in a different way, basically. So then the final one is called fearful avoidant or disorganized attached. And this is what I have.

[00:15:35] This is my, my style that I've had to work through a ton of years. Um, and I'm still like, I'll still find myself kind of doing this. And a fearful avoidant style usually develops when you had access to none of those criteria. So if you had at least one, then you'll generally fall into anxious, preoccupied, or dismissive avoidance.

[00:15:57] But if you had access to not a safe environment, [00:16:00] no regulated caregiver, um, no caregiver that was available to even attempt to regulate you, then what you will generally find is that you have a Like mixed signals. Your brain, your left brain couldn't determine what is the one way to get my needs met.

[00:16:20] Like, if I'm anxious, I know if I throw a big enough tantrum, I'm gonna, my parents gonna come and see me. A dismissive avoidant. If I stuff down my feelings and I pretend like I'm fine a hundred percent of the time, I'm the golden child, I'm, you know, all the things, then great. My parents come back and connect with me because I don't need anything emotionally from them.

[00:16:41] Well, when you have fearful avoidant or disorganized. None of those things work. So not, not for a consistent amount of time. So you might try a temper tantrum. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't work. You might try avoiding your feelings. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. And so what happens is you're in this push pull [00:17:00] of, you know, I can't trust people completely to meet my needs.

[00:17:04] I also can't trust myself to meet my needs. And so what ultimately happens is you have this push pull that ends in freeze, which is as a business owner. It's apathy, it's dissociating, it's getting overwhelmed in your thoughts, you'll have an idea, and then suddenly, like, you want to do things, but then you're questioning yourself, there's a, there's a high level of, like, suspicion within your own ideas and with how other people will meet you, and so those are the dynamics that I have seen play out in different ways.

[00:17:42] perspectives. I've seen it from my own. Once I started digging into this, uh, you know, how is, how, now that I know that I have this fearful avoidant tendency, how does that play out with how I make decisions in my business? How does that play out with offers that I choose or, you know, the audience that I'm connecting with?

[00:17:59] How does that play [00:18:00] out with clients? And so really looking at those interactions and how basically it's like your left brain didn't develop. The knowing and the understanding to perceive what is a threat and what is safe. And so your body is basically attuned to constantly be on alert for danger.

[00:18:24] Whereas if you're secure attached, you're attuned to safety. You're looking for safety. You're looking for success. Your, your body is. leaning towards it versus insecure attachment, your body is always watching for the other shoe to drop in some way, shape or form. So you're doing all these mitigating strategies to prevent this perceived loss that you are, you might not even know that you're doing.

[00:18:51] Andrea Elibero: You know, what's so interesting as you're speaking about this, so, so,

[00:18:55] me, I am on the avoidance side, and, [00:19:00] and, I was like, okay, in my first, um, sort of like deep work on this was actually related to my business before it was related to my romantic relationships. So, right, so it's just so interesting. So I've worked a lot on somatic things on, you know, really feeling, you know, on all of these things.

[00:19:23] So, so I've been doing this work for, for a number of years on and off. And, um, I just think it's so interesting that I didn't necessarily attach it to my attachment style, but this is what I'm doing, right? I'm like, okay, no, I need to feel like working on this. So I really, uh, appreciate how your attachment style really does play into your business.

[00:19:48] And I find it so interesting. And I also, you're the, I think the second person, a few, a few episodes ago, I spoke with another guest who works with both business owners and [00:20:00] romantic relationships. So, so there's so much connection there. And I think this is so interesting. Mm hmm. Um, if you were to give, because I want to kind of like, I have like two sides that I want to talk about.

[00:20:12] So both like your journey and then this, because I, because you know, this is my, my jam. I love talking about these things. So with the, if you were going to give maybe a couple of, I don't see like tips or things that maybe practices or things like this for each type of style. Just like very quick things or things that if you want to start, you know, addressing this within your business, would you be able to do that for us?

[00:20:36] Deborah McDaniel: Yeah, definitely. So I would say all of the attachment styles relate to, so there, there's three things that I kind of look at when you pull out the 30, 000 foot view of what I kind of do in so many ways, shapes, or forms. And that is. Like capacity, so nervous system capacity is one thing and then alignment is another thing and [00:21:00] then, um, like I would say strategy is, is the third thing.

[00:21:04] And so your attachment styles really dictate your nervous system capacity for success and for perceived failure, right? So it's, um, so if you have an anxious preoccupied attachment style. then your capacity for discomfort is, is very small across all three insecure attachment styles. We, we all, if you have these insecure attachment styles, you have a very small window of like discomfort capacity.

[00:21:37] So in order to start to change things into more like a secure, because you can model it. These are. These are resilient, they are flexible, and you can teach your brain, you basically just have to bring your left brain up to speed with the real, like the reality of the world versus what your left brain [00:22:00] was cultivated in,

[00:22:01] Andrea Elibero: Isn't that amazing? Don't we love that? Right. That you're like, okay, like great. The first step is identifying and now you're like, we can grow. Yeah.

[00:22:10] Deborah McDaniel: Exactly and so I think that's that's you bring up a really good point because I Personally as as I've been digging into this all like I've thought about you know Self sabotage as a pattern and self defeat as a pattern and what I've come to realize is that I don't know that any of those Actually exist self sabotage is it's just your left brain Misinterpreting the context of whatever this event is.

[00:22:38] So something really great happens and your left brain can only contextualize this based off of what happened when you were a kid and something good

[00:22:49] Andrea Elibero: That feels so relieving. You know, it's like so, I don't know, it just feels so much more comforting that thinking like, Oh, I self sabotage, that feels heavy, right?

[00:22:59] Deborah McDaniel: Because it feels like I'm [00:23:00] intentionally, like I'm intentionally psyching myself out from doing something amazing. And so if you realize, like, Your left brain just never got the chance to see an environment that was safe and regulating and nurturing. And so it's just misperceiving. You're taking an information and your left brain is misperceiving that information as a threat.

[00:23:23] And so if we can teach our left brain to see that as just information, not a threat, and then we can tap into that. navigating using our rational side, our left brain with our emotional side, our right brain, then we can make some better decisions. So with anxious, the discomfort that we want to work on is the discomfort of not pleasing everybody at the detriment to ourself.

[00:23:51] Because so often, even as a child, you think about when you have to ramp your body up to throw a tantrum of that magnitude and then [00:24:00] sustain it.

[00:24:01] Andrea Elibero: It's a

[00:24:01] Deborah McDaniel: Like your body is is in a lot of hurt, pain, chaos. There's, you know, there's neurological things. There's physiological things. And so what we want to work on is like, everybody says boundaries, but really that's, it's true for somebody that has an anxious, preoccupied attachment style.

[00:24:21] You have to build the muscle of saying

[00:24:23] Andrea Elibero: yeah. And you know, it's interesting. I would love us to see a study on online service providers because I know this is a big issue. And I'm like, Oh, I wonder what percentage of done for you service providers are anxious attachment stock. There's so much people pleasing so much, putting your clients above everything else.

[00:24:41] And it's a big part of what I do with my, with my people as well, because, because it's something that a lot of my clients struggle with.

[00:24:50] Deborah McDaniel: Exactly. And so that's like, I've worked predominantly with service providers, and that was the same thing that I saw was like, most of my clients had these anxious, [00:25:00] preoccupied attachment styles. And it's like, okay. I recognize that it's really hard to to say no, to put down a boundary because anxious, when you're anxious preoccupied, you generally believe that the world should be boundaryless, like you overgive to your detriment, and people overgive to their detriment to you.

[00:25:20] That's the expectation on when that doesn't happen. Then you start mitigating. How do I, how do I pull somebody to become essentially boundary less with me? Because that's how you think like this again, if you think like, this is my child brain trying to rationalize how, how this world works. Um, so with anxious, you really want to start with.

[00:25:43] Name a boundary and then practice regulating yourself down. So calming your nervous system, holding the no, making sure that like, this is where like meditations and breathing exercises and all of those things are really great because you're [00:26:00] teaching your nervous system and you're teaching your left brain how to handle discomfort.

[00:26:05] Andrea Elibero: mm hmm, mm hmm.

[00:26:06] Deborah McDaniel: you are dismissive avoidant,

[00:26:08] Andrea Elibero: So let me, hold on. So to pause on that, the other thing, the other piece of this, this is really cool is that once you, once you do the experiment, you know, let me put a little boundary C and then it gets, you get to see and you get to teach your nervous system in your brain, right. That Oh, nothing bad happened.

[00:26:25] Deborah McDaniel: Nothing bad

[00:26:26] Andrea Elibero: Yeah, and then that builds the resilience that build that then you grow from there So it's really just the practice and the consistency and sticking with it And then you'll look back, you know a little bit from the when you start you think oh I've grown so much and i'm able to say and be confident about it And it's really a beautiful a beautiful thing to witness in yourself Yeah,

[00:26:52] Deborah McDaniel: um, let's say that somebody has like a discovery call with you and they say, like, I need [00:27:00] some time to think about it. An anxious preoccupied person with those patterns and recognize would be like, Oh crap.

[00:27:08] I need to like, I'm going to say, okay, but I'm like, I'm going to be watching my email. I'm going to be looking. I'm going to be like, I'm going to start saying. Kind of cyber stalking them on Facebook and Instagram and like what are they thinking? What can I do? You might send an email that gives them some discounts or like you're these are all anxious preoccupied strategies that your left brain is like Okay, we're in danger.

[00:27:29] Like this is serious. We got to step it up We got a we got to show them that we are so boundary list that they will say, okay great and in those kinds of moments It's gotta be like the, okay, like, I'm, like, I'm gonna trust myself to hold me, I'm gonna trust you to make a decision. And then in that in between moment before you have like a yes or a no or a follow up, you need to regulate yourself.

[00:27:58] Get off, like, get away from your [00:28:00] computer and do some regulation to soothe your nervous system because you never learned as a child how to soothe yourself. So you've got to start, you know, touch. I love somatic. So, you know, rubbing your shoulders, touching your arms, really focusing on like, I need to down regulate

[00:28:20] Andrea Elibero: Mm hmm. And like, yeah, for sure. And again, like recognizing that, oh, this is what's happening. And knowing that this is what's happening and why is the first thing. And then be like, okay, now what can I do? Because I feel like a lot of times, and I saw this again, like my former life as a psychologist doing therapy, that once you start to realize that this is what's happening, then the changes come so much faster.

[00:28:43] You know, then you can really get into it because, because people are so just generally when these things happen, it's so unconscious. You know, it's been however many years, right? It's so unconscious. And once you bring, right, once you bring it to light, then it's like, Oh, this is what's happening. It's so relieving [00:29:00] to

[00:29:00] Deborah McDaniel: Yeah. And you're like, okay, I feel freaked out right

[00:29:04] Andrea Elibero: Yeah.

[00:29:04] Deborah McDaniel: now I know why I'm feeling freaked out. And I know that I'm not in actual danger. And I can, Like, I can teach myself that this is not the time to be this amped up. Like, how do I bring myself down to, like, a neutral? Neutrality is the thing. For, like, good and bad.

[00:29:21] Like, we want to just get ourselves to neutral. Because at that neutral place, we have access to both hemispheres of our brain. We make a lot more rational decisions. Um, So for dismissive avoid it, it's the same thing. So like, it's so funny because I used to think I was dismissive avoid it until I really started digging into fearful avoidance.

[00:29:42] And I will say that one of the things that I was terrible at when I was doing, you know, my first business was actually ghostwriting and then I pivoted and I, I

[00:29:52] Andrea Elibero: we're gonna get into that in a second. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Lots

[00:29:55] Deborah McDaniel: I will say that like what would happen is people would send me [00:30:00] messages and I and say that they want it to work with me, which is like, ah, you want that.

[00:30:05] But when you are running like this dismissive avoidant pattern, like seeing somebody desire to work with you can bring up those like, What if, what if I'm not good enough? Because that's generally what you learned as a child was like, my emotions were not good and my parents don't, they won't respond to me if I have them, which means I myself am not good unless I am perfect, unless I am emotionally, you know, contained, rational.

[00:30:39] And so what will happen is if these patterns are playing out in your business, you get somebody that's like, Hey, I want to book a call with you. What does that look like? You will go into like the, the like deer in headlights. Like what? Me? What are you? And God forbid if this person, like you don't respond because you're processing, like what does this mean?

[00:30:57] You're, you're very much like the, I need to analyze. [00:31:00] Why does this person want this? You're perceiving them as potentially needy, which you have learned is not good. So you're doing all of the internal stuff and God forbid, they send you another message to say, Hey, you know, I had this happen to me. This one lady messaged me.

[00:31:17] I didn't get the email and it was like a breakdown in my tech. And so she, she emailed me, I didn't get it. She messaged me on Facebook to let me know that it had been a few days and I never responded. So I'm going to look for like, where the heck did she? And in the meantime, she found a calendar that was hidden and booked a call.

[00:31:35] And. My patterns were like, I don't even know how to respond to this. So I'm doing flight, I'm troubleshooting my tech. I'm not responding to her. It took me three days to be like, okay. We have a call set. Let's, let's do this. And that's generally what happens when you have a dismissive avoidant pattern is like freak out.

[00:31:58] Like [00:32:00] somebody expressed interest in, in, in value in something that I do. I don't know how to hold that and be perfect when I show up for them. So I need some, I need some distance. I need to find some things to do, to, you know, make sure that when I show up, I'm perfect. Um, if somebody didn't book a call, let's say like you've launched something and you're trying to sell it and you make a payment.

[00:32:20] a social media post and suddenly the same, like, I got to get away from this. I can't, I, you know, I'm watching it and nobody liked it. So now I'm questioning, you know, was this the right thing to sell? And you're back in the weeds, you're whatever I need to tinker with. And the same thing has to happen. So you get something good.

[00:32:42] And when you start to like, feel the feelings of like, I'm getting overwhelmed, I'm trying to check out, then you want to practice. Staying in place and like regulating yourself down. Cause this is still a heightened nervous system response. You've got to [00:33:00] calm yourself down enough to like get access to both these hemispheres of your brain so that you can think rationally and really look at the situation to see, is this a person that I want to work with?

[00:33:10] Is this not, is this the right offer, but you can't do it if you're, if you're trying to run away and get away and like. not do the things. Um, fearful avoid it, which is what I ultimately realized I have. What it's, it's, you actually have to ramp up your nervous system because what generally happens is you get stuck in your head of overthinking the things because anxious, preoccupied, there's, I trust other people's opinions of me more than I trust myself.

[00:33:40] That's generally what the foundational, core belief is. So if somebody else sees value in me, then I will see value in me. But if I can't determine that somebody sees value in me, then it must mean that I'm not valuable. So I have to do more. Um, dismissive avoidant is the opposite. I trust me. [00:34:00] I don't trust.

[00:34:01] The people around me because I'm going to have to be perfect to meet their needs. And that can result in like the loss of freedom, the loss of flexibility that I like. There's a lot of like, I trust me. I don't trust myself in a tied relationship with you. What does that mean about me? What am I going to have to do to contort myself to meet your needs?

[00:34:26] And, um, So with fearful avoidance, it's I don't trust myself to make the right decision. And I also don't trust that if I make the right decision that I'll be received by somebody that, you know, makes me feel like I made the right decision. So there's a lack of trust on both ends, which ultimately is like freeze.

[00:34:44] And so these are like the service providers who I've worked with a ton who like, want to start a business, want to do the things. Um, I worked with a few years ago, um, this phenomenal [00:35:00] editor and she had been editing for years, but not being paid for it. And suddenly. You know, she wants to start selling this and being paid and it's like I can't like you have the skill set you know, you have the skill set and you have experience and it was like for a month and a half could not even just make a post to say Hey, I'm doing the service.

[00:35:27] And it's freeze. It's like you get to it and it's like a wall and you shut down and you dissociate and you're, you're in your head, you're not in your body at all. Your regulation is your nervous system is so down regulated that it's like meditations and visual, like that's going to sink you deeper into this apathetic state where.

[00:35:50] You can't make a decision. And so what you have to practice is when you start to notice dissociation, which can look like and often does look like [00:36:00] overthinking, overanalyzing, being up in your head, daydreaming, um, fantasizing, like, The escape mechanisms, the mental escape mechanisms are oftentimes like this, this, um, free state because you're so dissociated from reality.

[00:36:19] We escape into our heads, we escape into whatever we can, TV, books, all of that. You have to start bringing in some movement. So when you've escaped, Start to wiggle your hands, start to wiggle your toes, stand up, stretch, bring back the awareness to your body. And you have to consistently do this every time you start to escape, like, okay, I need to, I need to wiggle, I need to stretch, I need to just start to bring feeling back into your limbs, because that's the only way to get yourself out of this, like, chronic freeze state that can happen.

[00:36:57] And that's what ultimately started happening with [00:37:00] me.

[00:37:01] Andrea Elibero: It's all so fascinating and makes so much sense. And I love that you are bringing this or have brought this into the business world because it affects that. I mean, you can see so many examples that you've given. You can see how this affects everything in business. And the cool part is that once you start working on this, it also helps your life in general.

[00:37:22] Deborah McDaniel: absolutely. Like once you become secure attached in one

[00:37:26] Andrea Elibero: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:37:30] Deborah McDaniel: areas too. So like I started working on this stuff for my business, but ultimately it has supported my kids because I'm witnessing now, like my daughter, she's 15 years old and I started getting into this work when she was about nine.

[00:37:45] And, um, at that point, she had severe anxiety, and I didn't recognize it because I was parenting from the ways that I was parenting, or parented. And, um, it took her, like, I'm witnessing how just chronically anxious she [00:38:00] is about not meeting, um, Like the perfect standards that I had set. And so I started doing this work on myself and like really untangling all of my stuff.

[00:38:10] And now at 15, just today, she's on a vacation with my two older aunts and everybody comments how confident my daughter is. Like she is herself, no matter where she is, she's doing all sorts of stuff. She just got accepted into student council at her high school. Things that like, she never would have attempted.

[00:38:30] She was in theater last year. And so I, I can witness how me becoming more secure attached translates to how I parent and it translates to my Children,

[00:38:40] Andrea Elibero: And you're breaking the generational traumas, like, oh, yeah,

[00:38:45] Deborah McDaniel: And it just also speaks to like the resiliency of the brain because I wasn't, I mean, I was, I was good. I provided a safe environment for my children, but there were things that I was like severely lacking because I had never been given those things.

[00:38:59] [00:39:00] And so much is said about, you know, like, The things that happen between when you're zero and seven years old, it's like, it's the most critical moments and the trauma and all

[00:39:10] Andrea Elibero: Right,

[00:39:11] Deborah McDaniel: And it just speaks to, like, I didn't start working on this until my daughter was 10 and at 15, like such a completely like one 80 degree turn can happen in such a short amount of time.

[00:39:24] And also one thing to be said is like, It only takes 30%, like if your childhood had 30 percent of those three criteria I mentioned earlier, you will have a secure attachment. So the bar is pretty stinking low, like you just gotta, you gotta be there 30 percent of the time, and even as an adult, 30 percent of the time, if you can model secure attachment for yourself, 30 percent of the time, your brain will pick up on it, and you will become a secure attached individual.

[00:39:55] Andrea Elibero: and this is so another point of, oh, this is doable. You know, there's hope. [00:40:00] This is not just, oh, I am self stop doing

[00:40:02] Deborah McDaniel: so

[00:40:03] Andrea Elibero: I can't overcome them.

[00:40:05] Deborah McDaniel: Yeah. Mhmm.

[00:40:07] Andrea Elibero: what you're doing, like, so doable, which is, which is amazing, you know? Amazing. So, okay, I could talk about this for another six hours, but, but we were going to, I also want to transition and pivot because I think we had, so thank you for sharing all of that.

[00:40:23] I think that was an amazing overview and we got into a lot of really also good things that people can do, you know, right now. And, and then at the end, we'll find out how we can connect with you further so that people want to dive in more, of course. So the other part of why you are so interesting is because.

[00:40:41] you yourself have, as you mentioned, you started off, started off as a ghostwriter and now you were doing this, you were doing this coaching based on attachment style. So in order to not make this a six hour podcast, I would love to get some of the,

[00:40:57] in your pivots, whichever ones you want to talk [00:41:00] about, some of kind of the highlight, the most transformational things for you that held you through these times.

[00:41:09] Deborah McDaniel: hmm. Yeah. So I will say like, my friends say I'm like the pivot queen because, and this also speaks to like attachment style because pivoting can be such a like wonderful getting into alignment and it can also be an escape strategy, which is why I thought for the longest time I had this dismissive avoidant attachment style.

[00:41:30] Um, and so I will say some of the pivots I made were definitely me running, right?

[00:41:36] Andrea Elibero: Okay. This is important. Like I do wanna highlight this because we're, I'm all about alignment in these things so people can pivot for the wrong quote unquote reasons as

[00:41:48] Deborah McDaniel: Exactly. Exactly. So I will say like the majority of the pivots I made in the beginning of my business were me running like Trying to get away trying to get away from [00:42:00] Perceived struggle or hurt being trapped by my business Um, I still battle with like am I trapping myself in the things but that that's been the main theme So I started this ghost writing Um, I just started ghost writing.

[00:42:14] It wasn't even like I was like, ah, I don't know. I wrote this book with my mom You Um, I was really upset with like my experiences in corporate America and my mom, I went on a 10 month sabbatical basically while I was pregnant and I'm trying to figure out who am I? not in corporate America. Who am I when I'm not the top achiever at my job, which suddenly I'm not because I'm pregnant and it wasn't expected.

[00:42:38] And I'm like, my body's being hijacked and all the things. And so my mom is like, you know, I'm trying to write this book about my experience in corporate America. Would you want to help? So I'm like, yeah. So we write this book and I fell in love with the process of writing. And I had always been like an immature writer, like amateur.

[00:42:57] Um, yeah. And so I [00:43:00] thought maybe I could do this as a service and I can, you know, I'm on a sabbatical, let me just see. And so I put out like a post on Upwork of all the places, which is known for being notoriously cheap, but I will say. You just gotta look. And, uh, four days in, I got a 10, 000 book deal to ghostwrite this person's memoir.

[00:43:22] And I fell in love with the process of interviewing somebody because I used a lot of, like, I was already certified as a coach, but not using it. So I got to pull in, like, these mental wellness coaching and psychology background that I had. And this person loved How much I did it that he started to refer other people to me and so suddenly I've got this book And then the next book I'm I got a book for like 2015, 000 and then another book for 25, 000 and I'm ghostwriting these books and coaching people on my writing style in the midst of this The book that I wrote with my mom gets [00:44:00] picked up by Forbes because we're self published because no publishers want it And it starts getting traction in like the DEI space and LinkedIn and all these people because it's at the height of DEI that Our book is comes out not intentionally.

[00:44:13] We were just you know, lucky And um, so an editor in Forbes picks up the book and reads it and interviews me and my mom and my sister And suddenly i'm getting more requests because my mom says, you know My daughter's the one that really taught me this writing style And so i've got these three books that i'm, you know knee deep in finishing up and now I've got people messaging me to edit their books.

[00:44:38] Do you know how to edit? And how did you self publish? Do you, can you help me self publish? And how do you do book covers and all the things? So me being, this is where like I should have known fearful because I took that as I need to be everything to everybody. So yes, I will go straight. Yes. I will learn how to edit.

[00:44:56] Yes. I will format. I will self publish. And so [00:45:00] now my business out like quicker than I could even fathom. Is a publishing concierge

[00:45:07] Andrea Elibero: this is a crazy story. This is a crazy. Yeah.

[00:45:12] Deborah McDaniel: so I don't even like i'm just taking yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I can take an editing course I can learn I start bringing on contractors. I start hiring help to like help me manage this monstrosity of a business that I have and Then I realized like I was hiring out of like this this lack I wasn't I just needed somebody to fill the seat.

[00:45:32] I wasn't being clear about You You have to have so much experience and I had co workers that were seeing me and like, hey, hire me. I could use a, okay. So now I have a team and I had a team of about six and none of the team is doing the work. So now I have a backlog of clients. I have a six month wait list for books.

[00:45:54] I have a two month wait list for editing jobs. And we have this launch [00:46:00] program that we're doing to help authors launch their books, similar to how my mom and I launched our

[00:46:04] Andrea Elibero: You are stressing me out, by the way, with this business. You are stressing me out with this story.

[00:46:10] Deborah McDaniel: and that's how I felt I was so stressed out and so now I've got this team that They have their own dismissive avoiding attachment styles. I didn't realize at the time So they say they want this I train them and then I give them their first job and they freak out and they run away They think just ghost so there's stuff that has to be done.

[00:46:32] So now I'm working 40 hours 50 hours a week to like Get all the pieces. And I just hit a wall and was like, I cannot. I hit the wall when I started looking at my taxes, like this is fast forward about 11 months, and I'm looking and I'm like, I made a hundred and fourteen thousand dollars. Where is it?

[00:46:52] Because I don't have it. Where, like, how, where did the money go? And how, how did I not even realize that I [00:47:00] was making this much money so quick? Well, I'm paying people. I'm hiring all the strategists in the world to help me. And none of them are helping me manage this dynamics. So you can see where the passion of like attachment styles was born out of was I had, it wasn't the business.

[00:47:17] I could do the work. I loved the work. It was managing the people. It was managing myself when clients asked for things that were out of scope and me saying, well, that must mean that I must, because you value me. So if I, if you value me, then I want to do more of that. And so I shut the whole business down.

[00:47:33] I wound up firing all of my team. I had a really phenomenal OBM. She was chasing me down to try and like get, get some marketing. And I was running the heck away from her because I was like, I do not have space to market. Like I can barely keep my, I don't want more business. I can barely keep this thing.

[00:47:51] So I, I shut the whole thing down. I hit a wall, like a really hard wall. I fired everybody. I gave out refunds for the people that have wait listed and I [00:48:00] really just like manage my business to the end of it. And then I took some time to be like, what happened? Why did this go South? Where, where did we go wrong?

[00:48:11] And, um, so that's where the first pivot was born out of was because I felt my ego was like, How could you have done this? You were so great as a leader in corporate America. How could you not lead this business? And so that critical dismissive avoidant comes in. That's like, the heck is wrong with you?

[00:48:30] Like this, this must not be. And so my thought process was. This isn't a me thing. This was just, I didn't know how to run a business. So in order to fix that gap, I will pull in my project management background from corporate America, which I didn't want to do, but I will do it for this. And I'm going to work behind the scenes for seven figure entrepreneurs, because I need to see how they hold a seven figure business.

[00:48:55] And I can help them by organizing the behind the scenes.

[00:48:58] Andrea Elibero: hmm.

[00:48:59] Deborah McDaniel: [00:49:00] And so that's where that first pivot was born out of was that was, this isn't a me thing. This is, I just need to learn the strategy that a seven figure business owner uses and I'll get the inside knowledge. And um, so I did that. I immediately booked a seven figure.

[00:49:15] Coach is my first OBM client and I was like, wait, this is the same thing that's happening just at a bigger level. They're still just as stressed as I am. This is a stressful business. Launching is stressful. Managing teams is stressful. They don't have any other stuff together.

[00:49:36] Andrea Elibero: Let me tell you, was it not when you saw that, were you not like, oh, because as a, cause I also OBM here and you think, cause you know, people show up and it's like, oh yeah, it's so easy and whatever. And when you see behind the scenes, There's so much of it that's such a dumpster fire, and you're like, how did you get to this level of your business running like this?

[00:49:59] Deborah McDaniel: It's all, [00:50:00] like, I would say almost every client I worked with, it was a dumpster fire behind the scenes. But the difference was, is that they had the capacity to hold the dumpster fire. I did not have capacity to hold the dumpster fire. And that's because of my, like, A securely attached person, you can hold a dumpster fire for as long as you need to, you know what I mean?

[00:50:23] You'll figure it out. If you have a big enough capacity to hold it, you will hold

[00:50:28] Andrea Elibero: I will say some of that is a little triggering to me because I do not appreciate the dumpster fire. And I have seen people who are not a dumpster fire. So just to be fair, so many people are though. And right. So, so you're right. So they can get to that point because they can hold it. It's not a great way to run a business still.

[00:50:43] So

[00:50:44] Deborah McDaniel: not, it's not. And so that's, that's the women that I work with now where it's like, you held this up until now and now your capacity has ran out. So how do we, how do we manage the business when your capacity is completely diminished?

[00:50:59] Andrea Elibero: So [00:51:00] you're like the, the, the compliment almost to the OBM strategy, like the management, the strategy, and then you have this side of like, oh, now let's work on you and, and you being

[00:51:10] Deborah McDaniel: on you. Exactly. Yeah. So that, that's the progression of the pivots that I made. So that first pivot was me like, this isn't me until I got behind the scenes and was like, wait, I'm seeing this repeatedly over and over. This is a me thing. This is a them thing. This is like, if I can't hold my business, If I can't hold having somebody in my space to give work to because I feel uncomfortable delegating because of X, Y, Z, if I can't hold the scope of what I'm telling people I do, these are all my internal stuff.

[00:51:49] So the pivot to go from director of operations back into like a coaching role, that was alignment for me. And that felt like [00:52:00] I'm, I am doing this not because I'm running away from director of operations. I, I, I don't like, I'm good at it, but I also recognize it's not something that I enjoy. And I got into it only for the purpose of seeing how other people ran their businesses.

[00:52:15] And then at a certain point, I'm like, why am I still here? I got the data. I've got the knowledge. I know how, like, I've been doing all this inner work. I can hold a business of seven figures now. Why am I still

[00:52:26] Andrea Elibero: So. Yeah, so at the same time that you were in the DOO role, this is when you were doing this work on yourself, this inner work. Okay. Yeah,

[00:52:35] Deborah McDaniel: Mm hmm.

[00:52:36] Andrea Elibero: important too, right? Because why are you pivoting, right? To step back and like if we look at this and how this story can be used as a lesson for others, it's why are we doing this?

[00:52:49] And

[00:52:49] Deborah McDaniel: Why are we doing

[00:52:50] Andrea Elibero: Right, why are we doing it? And alongside this, you need, I don't care who you are, like when you're running a business, it is the biggest opportunity for [00:53:00] self growth that you didn't know that you were going to hop on this train, you know, as you start your business, you might not have realized this, but you have to do this work in order to grow.

[00:53:10] And you have to want to. You know, like it has to come from this place of I want this and I know that in order to have this thing like Oh, I'm really interested in growing. It's you grow as a human and and it's really lovely, you know And so it's hard and there's a lot of things that happen and but look what would have happened if you had stayed in corporate America, you know like imagine what would have happened None of this growth that you

[00:53:33] Deborah McDaniel: None of this. None of this. The dynamics between me and my kids would have been the same because I wouldn't have the time and the space to invest in myself and look at myself and then translate that into like present parenting. Um, like so many things. I, I love business is, we don't know it when we get into it, but it is such the, the portal for self growth.

[00:53:58] Andrea Elibero: a hundred percent.

[00:53:59] Deborah McDaniel: Like it, [00:54:00] there's no other, no other career that exists that will put you through the wringer, like

[00:54:06] Andrea Elibero: Yeah.

[00:54:06] Deborah McDaniel: and facing all of your patterns.

[00:54:08] Andrea Elibero: Yeah. Maybe what's funny is that I love that, you know, like I'm attracted to that, right?

[00:54:15] Deborah McDaniel: Absolutely.

[00:54:17] Andrea Elibero: Amazing. So I love all of this and I think we've already shared so many, so many important things and let's end, unless, is there something else before I ask you the last thing that you're like, oh wait I really want to talk about this and you know, I've been waiting to share this

[00:54:32] Deborah McDaniel: Yeah. I feel

[00:54:33] Andrea Elibero: thing.

[00:54:33] Yeah

[00:54:34] Deborah McDaniel: yeah. Um, I will say that when it, when it comes to like choosing your pivots, it's, it's The why is, is like you said, it's the most important thing. Why am I doing this? And not shaming yourself for if you're choosing the pivot to run, but also being aware of when am I going to stop running?

[00:54:55] Because that is one thing that I ran into was getting behind the scenes and the [00:55:00] comfortability of being in demand, because there is always a need for the service that I was offering as a done for you service provider, that you get comfortable. And even if they're not aligned, comfortable is comfortable.

[00:55:13] Even if you hate the work, comfortable is comfortable. So I will say if you're, if you're comfortable,

[00:55:19] Andrea Elibero: Yeah.

[00:55:20] Deborah McDaniel: happy, set a deadline. When am I going to do something about this?

[00:55:25] Andrea Elibero: hmm. It's interesting that you said, okay, it's okay if you want to pivot because you're running. It's okay. Do it. But then come back to this and say, okay, and I'm curious, what led, what was the reasoning behind this? Why is this your advice is to go ahead and do it?

[00:55:45] Deborah McDaniel: because, okay. So I also love human design. And one of the things I learned about myself in human design is that I have a 3 5 profile. And the line three is all about trial and error. [00:56:00] It's you have to experience the thing in order to know if this is right. And so Especially as this, like, fearful avoidant attachment style, if I tie that back and you get caught up in your, your head of what's the step to take, none of the steps feel safe, none of this feels good, so I'm just going to stay here, you, it can be very helpful to get in the rhythm of just taking a step and seeing where that step

[00:56:25] Andrea Elibero: Okay. Yeah. That makes so much sense. Right. Yeah.

[00:56:28] Deborah McDaniel: because again, like, we

[00:56:29] Andrea Elibero: step. I'm not gonna freeze. I'll be okay if I move.

[00:56:33] Deborah McDaniel: to freeze, If I'm constantly moving, even if it's not towards the right thing, if I'm at least finding out what's the wrong thing, that's just as helpful as choosing the right thing.

[00:56:44] And so I've done a lot of that of taking a step, getting to the end and being like, Oh, this isn't it. Okay. Let me back up. Let's shit. Like what, what did I learn? How am I going to pivot this time? What am I going to take? What am I going to leave behind? How am I going to change things? And [00:57:00] let's try this one out.

[00:57:01] And eventually you'll, you'll find like where you, it feels

[00:57:06] Andrea Elibero: hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah.

[00:57:08] Deborah McDaniel: that's what you're looking

[00:57:09] Andrea Elibero: Yeah, it makes total sense. I have to say that I have to go back and go deeper into my human design because I don't remember I did this at some point I forget my lines, but I'm like, I'm on the same page as you and that I need to experience the thing to see if it's right for me. I don't know unless I unless I do it.

[00:57:28] Yeah. Yeah. And I'm always doing so yeah, so very so the exact process you said was At the time I had kind of a, I did not have your story at all. Your story is crazy in an amazing way. But in terms of like the, oh, well, let me do this because this is happening. And this, you know, it's all very frantic at the beginning until you reach a point where you're like, okay, no, like we're not doing this anymore.

[00:57:51] Yeah.

[00:57:52] Deborah McDaniel: I want to be intentional now. I've done enough trying things on and running wavelength. Okay, I've gathered enough [00:58:00] experience, experiential data that I can be intentional.

[00:58:03] Andrea Elibero: exactly, exactly. So, yes. Okay, I'm going to leave it on this because I feel like this is it. This is the combination of all of the things. So, if you don't mind, please share. How can we stay in touch with you if you have any free gifts? Like, how do we get more of Deb in our lives?

[00:58:19] Deborah McDaniel: So right now I am primarily on Facebook. Um, I'll have to send you the link. I cannot remember my Facebook handle. I'm

[00:58:27] Andrea Elibero: the show notes. Yeah.

[00:58:28] Deborah McDaniel: yes. Um, I'm also on Instagram. It's the business of becoming it's business underscore of underscore becoming. And my website is business of becoming. com. And, um, yeah, right now I'm knee deep in like getting all the pieces together.

[00:58:46] So I don't have a freebie right now, but I should,

[00:58:49] Andrea Elibero: Well, stay tuned. It'll, yes, stay tuned. Connect on social media. Go on the website. Yeah, it'll be there. Thank you so much. This was absolutely amazing. Like I said, I could chat about [00:59:00] this for six hours, but we will, we will wrap it up now. Yes. Awesome.

[00:59:07] Thank you so much for joining us today. I really hope you found inspiration and insights from today's episode. You know, scaling your business intentionally and from the inside out is a transformational process, but I'm here to support you every step of the way. Head on over to dancingleafsolutions. com slash resources for free tools to help you do just that.

[00:59:27] And thank you again for being a part of the Soulpreneur Scaling Stories community, your presence and dedication to growth, inspiring me every day.